作者amperp (迷津慈航斩)
看板HatePolitics
标题[黑特] 理想国
时间Thu Apr 10 22:22:31 2014
http://www.ptt.cc/bbs/HatePolitics/M.1397139757.A.A0D.html
先前有人问英文版的，我没有全部找到，只能分享我找到的部份英文版(这不能说
「原文」版，因为原文是希腊文)
When a democracy which is thirsting for freedom has evil cup-bearers
presiding over the feast, and has drunk too deeply of the strong wine of
freedom,then, unless her rulers are very amenable and give a plentiful
draught, she calls them to account and punishes them, and says that they
are cursed oligarchs.
我设想一个情境，一个民主城邦渴望自由，很可能选出最差的团队来领导，
接受这最差团队所有花言巧语的欺骗，就像沉醉於美酒中而不可自拔。
如果是由正派团队来领导，他们只要稍微要求秩序，不再过份纵容，这个社会就群起
攻之，骂他独裁，还要将他赶下台严办。
and loyal citizens are insultingly termed by her slaves who hug
their chains and men of naught; she would have subjects who are like rulers,
and rulers who are like subjects: these are men after her own heart, whom she
praises and honours both in private and public. Now, in such a State, can
liberty have any limit?
至於那些愿意守秩序的人们，就被指为奴性太强，受到唾骂；平民向官员高高在上，
官员向平民低声下气。这样的国家走向极端自由不是必然的吗?
the father grows accustomed to descend to the level of his sons
and to fear them, and the son is on a level with his father, he having no
respect or reverence for either of his parents
父亲畏惧儿子，而做儿子的和父亲没大没小，不怕父母，似乎这样做才叫自由人。
In such a state of society the master fears and flatters his scholars, and
the scholars despise their masters and tutors; young and old are all alike;
and the young man is on a level with the old, and is ready to compete with
him in word ordeed; and old men condescend to the young and are full of
pleasantry and gaiety; they are loth to be thought morose and authoritative,
and therefore they adopt the manners of the young
另外还有一些类似的情况。老师害怕学生，奉承学生，学生反而篾视老师。
年轻人装老大，向长辈呛声，针锋相对；而老一辈的人则处处讨好年轻人，
学起年轻人用语说说笑笑，态度低声下气，学起年轻人一样行事，就怕被年轻人认为
是老古板。
And above all, I said, and as the result of all, see how sensitive the
citizens become; they chafe impatiently at the least touch of authority,
and at length, as you know, they cease to care even for the laws, written
or unwritten; they will have no one over them.
重点是，公民变得非常敏感；即使只要求一点点限制，他们也会变得烦躁不耐烦；
最后，你知道，他们再也不在乎任何的法令与规范，不会接受任何人的管制。
The ruin of oligarchy is the ruin of democracy; the same disease magnified and
intensified by liberty overmasters democracy–the truth being that the
excessive increase of anything often causes a reaction in the opposite
direction; and this is the case not only in the seasons and in vegetable and
animal life, but aboveall in forms of government
独裁政体瓦解的原因同时也是民主政体瓦解的原因。同样的弊病，被自由扩大加重后，
就会毁灭了民主政体。——事实就是：物极必反。这种现象，不仅在季节、动植物生命
中都是如此，在政治的形式上也是如此。
The excess of liberty, whether in States or individuals, seems only to pass
into excess of slavery
无论是国家还是个人，只要是极端的自由，最终反而会走向极端的奴役
And so tyranny naturally arises out of democracy, and the most aggravated
form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme form of liberty?
独裁政体很自然地是从民主政体中生出来，最严重的独裁体制和奴隶
制体制来自於最极端的自由形式，是吗？
--
看看柏拉图在两千多年前，对雅典的失控民主如何描述：
他们把侮慢当教养，无政府当自由，浪费当高尚，无礼当勇气。老师拍学生马屁，学生
轻视老师。老人因为不想被认为古板、威严，就开始模仿年轻人。市民遇到一点点
限制就躁怒，甚至不再守法。。
看板HatePolitics
标题[黑特] 理想国
时间Thu Apr 10 22:22:31 2014
http://www.ptt.cc/bbs/HatePolitics/M.1397139757.A.A0D.html
先前有人问英文版的，我没有全部找到，只能分享我找到的部份英文版(这不能说
「原文」版，因为原文是希腊文)
When a democracy which is thirsting for freedom has evil cup-bearers
presiding over the feast, and has drunk too deeply of the strong wine of
freedom,then, unless her rulers are very amenable and give a plentiful
draught, she calls them to account and punishes them, and says that they
are cursed oligarchs.
我设想一个情境，一个民主城邦渴望自由，很可能选出最差的团队来领导，
接受这最差团队所有花言巧语的欺骗，就像沉醉於美酒中而不可自拔。
如果是由正派团队来领导，他们只要稍微要求秩序，不再过份纵容，这个社会就群起
攻之，骂他独裁，还要将他赶下台严办。
and loyal citizens are insultingly termed by her slaves who hug
their chains and men of naught; she would have subjects who are like rulers,
and rulers who are like subjects: these are men after her own heart, whom she
praises and honours both in private and public. Now, in such a State, can
liberty have any limit?
至於那些愿意守秩序的人们，就被指为奴性太强，受到唾骂；平民向官员高高在上，
官员向平民低声下气。这样的国家走向极端自由不是必然的吗?
the father grows accustomed to descend to the level of his sons
and to fear them, and the son is on a level with his father, he having no
respect or reverence for either of his parents
父亲畏惧儿子，而做儿子的和父亲没大没小，不怕父母，似乎这样做才叫自由人。
In such a state of society the master fears and flatters his scholars, and
the scholars despise their masters and tutors; young and old are all alike;
and the young man is on a level with the old, and is ready to compete with
him in word ordeed; and old men condescend to the young and are full of
pleasantry and gaiety; they are loth to be thought morose and authoritative,
and therefore they adopt the manners of the young
另外还有一些类似的情况。老师害怕学生，奉承学生，学生反而篾视老师。
年轻人装老大，向长辈呛声，针锋相对；而老一辈的人则处处讨好年轻人，
学起年轻人用语说说笑笑，态度低声下气，学起年轻人一样行事，就怕被年轻人认为
是老古板。
And above all, I said, and as the result of all, see how sensitive the
citizens become; they chafe impatiently at the least touch of authority,
and at length, as you know, they cease to care even for the laws, written
or unwritten; they will have no one over them.
重点是，公民变得非常敏感；即使只要求一点点限制，他们也会变得烦躁不耐烦；
最后，你知道，他们再也不在乎任何的法令与规范，不会接受任何人的管制。
The ruin of oligarchy is the ruin of democracy; the same disease magnified and
intensified by liberty overmasters democracy–the truth being that the
excessive increase of anything often causes a reaction in the opposite
direction; and this is the case not only in the seasons and in vegetable and
animal life, but aboveall in forms of government
独裁政体瓦解的原因同时也是民主政体瓦解的原因。同样的弊病，被自由扩大加重后，
就会毁灭了民主政体。——事实就是：物极必反。这种现象，不仅在季节、动植物生命
中都是如此，在政治的形式上也是如此。
The excess of liberty, whether in States or individuals, seems only to pass
into excess of slavery
无论是国家还是个人，只要是极端的自由，最终反而会走向极端的奴役
And so tyranny naturally arises out of democracy, and the most aggravated
form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme form of liberty?
独裁政体很自然地是从民主政体中生出来，最严重的独裁体制和奴隶
制体制来自於最极端的自由形式，是吗？
--
看看柏拉图在两千多年前，对雅典的失控民主如何描述：
他们把侮慢当教养，无政府当自由，浪费当高尚，无礼当勇气。老师拍学生马屁，学生
轻视老师。老人因为不想被认为古板、威严，就开始模仿年轻人。市民遇到一点点
限制就躁怒，甚至不再守法。。
